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That path so far, and its other demands are so maximalist and are not going to happen, it's very hard to see how president putin who believes ukraine should be part of russia can step back from those very big high demands and has made a lot of noise about and accept something much smaller, arms control negotiations that take a long time to organize. it seems so unlikely at this stage. >> and you wrote earlier this week, ian, that the situation with russia and ukraine is the first major policy deb occul of the biden administration. it could be even more concerning than afghanistan. what is at s...

A lot of this was unavoidable. >> i would disagree with that. first of all, let's crack open a history book. if you look at the soviet withdrawal from afghanistan it was in no way a deb occul. it was relatively orderly. as far back as april and may, i make my way as a writer and i was writing pieces about efforts like congressman seth moulton and jason crow warning the administration, sending them letters to explain their plan how to evacuate all these afghans. and they were met with silence. we can also look at the fact we shutdown every single major u.s. air base in the country. and you only...

You and i both agreed back during the iraq war days on what a deb occul and disaster and what a horrible idea that was. and you remember while that was happening, people like john bolton were saying let's go onto iran, and now he has power. >> he has power. you saw in that clip in saying nobody's revoked their hunting license. temporarily trump revoked the hunting license which a good thing. some on the left and right are saying, well, donald trump doesn't want war and people around them. and trump told an aide these people are disgusting, hold up who appointed all the disgusting people to sec...