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Care of her, which he did, which is to push her out of government. this is a punitive administration, and so this whistle-blower must have really believed there was corruption here, and we saw the president, as he always does, he talks about how everybody else is corrupt to deflect from his own deep corruption. >> ben, i think the disturbing thought of the night i think for the audience is this is just one phone call. >> yes. >> this is just one phone call, one whistle-blower. wendy sherman, ben rhodes, thank you for joining us. really appreciate it. when we come back, republican strategist ...

Contents much a phone call like this? >> a pretty good number, lawrence. you'd have several people in the oval office for that call. the leadership of the nsc staff, the relevant people who work on ukraine in the nsc. people like your guest larry pfeifer who we work with in the situation room listening and making a record of the call. usually the transcript is disseminated. it suggests part of what got the attention of the whistle-blower is they were handling this call differently. they were trying to restrict access to the transcript of this call. i think it's also very important for your vie...

Not just this phone call, but ukraine policy in general. >> wendy, all these years on the call, one whistle-blower, only one. >> yes. i think we're in a time where people are terrified to become a whistle-blower. you have to be pretty sure of what you're doing. if you're an intelligence officer, you know your life is on the line, and that intelligence officers work not to be known by people. they work to be quietly doing the work to protect us and protect our national security. so for this whistle-blower, knowing particularly this president and this administration which believes in punishing p...

Pfiefer who work on the tran skriptd of the call. it's disseminated. it suggests part of what got the attention of the whistle-blower is they were handling this call differently. they were trying to restrict access to the transcript of this call. i think it is very important for your viewers to understand, it's not just this transcript. what else was going on? why was rudy giuliani flying out to ukraine? why was the state department -- again, based on reports we read -- directing rudy giuliani to be involved in this at all? he's a private citizen who represents the president of the united stat...

Trump actually operates and what that shows you is the complete and utter corruption of american foreign policy. >> your reaction? >> my reaction is quite similar. i found that press conference so painful today. zelenskiy was trying so hard to walk this very difficult line, flattering the president, saying he didn't get pressured, while at the same time saying we're an independent country. i can't ask a prosecutor to do a particular something. he was trying to show he's not a corrupt leader, which is essential in modern ukraine, given its history. and at the same time he had to sit next to the...