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Mattias isn't as bad as all of these other pokes and to the extent to which he isn't as bad as other folks, he is still doing some good because he's probably the last adult standing. and if he -- if we go after him based upon this behavior, what do we leave ourselves with? >> that gets to the question of should people serve in this administration? that's a deep and profound question as they cycle through these people what is your answer to that? >> first of all, look, i have to say clearly there is a deficiency, ethics defin si in the -- defin ciency. i know him by reputation because i served ...

Part of what they were selling was engaged in massive fraud and at the same time, i saw you nodding your head to the idea that gosh, don't go after him. >> well, to me when i was reading into this is just like wow, there is a click thing that goes on. that if you're part of that clique, you're going to want to build up the clique. i'm like these are people who are sitting on board of directors and did not know or knew and they were letting this happen and it's just like people covering for each other. i don't know. >> that i should say is a phenomenon that predates donald trump. the world of b...