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Given their life for this purpose they know they're going to die and then you have the response and a second shooter comes in. law enforcement is thinking in terms of that aspect. until they feel confident there's not a threat, they're not going to call this thing secure. gillian: bernard, thank you for joining us, former special agent in charge of atf. we appreciate your time, unfortunately under these circumstances. but thank you very much. right now, we want to hear -- we have a sound clip from a witness at the scene. let's listen to that. >> i saw people -- [ indiscernible ] like what is t...