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Proceeding, you are an a plus student but boy on this one, taking the fifth, i am not going to give you your grade. it won't happen. >> watch it happen. he is going to denounce. >> come back. >> jeff, to the professor's point if he takes the fifth, i'm not a lawyer -- >> give him immunity. >> so jeff, why would he take the fifth if that is the case? >> because the mueller's office will never give him immunity. they are not going to give him the opportunity to excuse from any criminal prosecution down the road. that is what immunity means, never be used against you. the idea that this central f...

Come back some day? >> it's going to be hard, but i'm not despairing yet. you've got a president who handled most of his life crises the way you just describe and it kind of worked up here in this environment. it really doesn't apply, working within government. to try to simply delegitimize anyone who might be saying something negative about you. but he is taking a pick and shovel to institutions and people, harming both the structures and the individuals who man the structures. and so my advice to folks and i mentioned this specifically in the books you know when i'm in the diner near the age...

With the michael cohen case, is that one where he should also be recused? >> absolutely. he was cagey about it in his testimony. when a department official recuses from a case, they don't say so publically, it would give the public some indication of the scope of the investigation, but that doesn't apply here. they've confirmed the investigation of michael cohen in court he could have announced if he was recused or not without giving any hint into the scope. here's the problem for him. if the department is investigating michael cohen for campaign finance violations, which we know they are, ses...

>> have you sought any advice with career ethics officials about whether you should recuse yourself in the cohen matter? >> i have sought advice on those matters, and i have not met with the top ethics person on it, but i can assure you i've not violated my recusal. >> matt miller your reaction to the attorney general's situation with the michael cohen case, is that one where he should also be recused? >> absolutely. he was cagey about it in his testimony. when a department official recuses from a case, they don't say so publically, it would give the public some indication of the scope of the ...

David, is his legal team. right now they're in negotiation with the special counsel. they're talking about the president, is he going to testify? what will the parameters oh of that be? how did they react when the president tweets things like this? >> well, not well. he's clearly unmanageable and has been in this investigation from the beginning. there's these two impulses. you see it may out on the sean hannity piece of this story, which is donald trump has a gut sense of how to attack everyone coming at him. and to attack mueller, to attack the -- this investigation as being beyond the scope...