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Reality-based chief executive. we pray for science to come to the fore in policymaking where the future of the planet is at stake. he's not invested in any of that. he's invested in what's inside here. >> i think there's something also bigger going on here. i think if he plays in the world of facts, in the world of facts, in the world of truth, the spoils go to the worthy. in the world of spin, the spoils go to the most shameless, and no one will ever take that crown away from him. >> right. >> he's really good at this. this is the thing that's confounding to people who want to deal with facts...

Also bigger going on here. i think if he plays in the world of facts, in the world of facts, in the world of truth, the spoils go to the worthy. in the world of spin, the spoils go to the most shameless, and no one will ever take that crown away from him. >> right. >> he's really good at this. this is the thing that's confounding to people who want to deal with facts, who imagine learning something. donald trump doesn't imagine learning something. he imagines persuading everyone else of what he wants to be true. that's the point rick was making. >> but can he persuade the mueller folks of what...