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Simply assumed that the upper income tax rates would be put up. but he does talk about -- he doesn't talk specifics. romney puts out a tax plan that, again, doesn't deal with -- he talks about deductions he's going to eliminate, but doesn't deal with specifics. paul ryan did the same thing, and he said, oh, i'm not on the ways and means. i'm not in charge of ways and means, i'll let somebody else deal with that. what taxes are going to go up on people, even if mitt romney is president of the united states? >> of look, if -- look at it a different way. if you really want to raise enough revenue...

What about dealing with medicare in a real way? >> it seem likes both sides are afraid of talking about the one thing, one negative, that they know that their aspect of budget is, right? president doesn't want to talk about tax increases. he vaguely mentions them but doesn't talk specifics. the ryan budget and romney, they don't want to talk about the specific cuts. >> right. that seems to be because they're both fear what that looks like in tv ads. >> also because all of these politicians are reluctant to go to people 15 and say, look we have to do hard thing and there are some things you'll ...