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Mid-terms it's an open question how much of the gop has a rabid loyalty to the former president. pence knows as the former president's vice president and a member of the trumpian wing of the republican party, that his base when energized can be a very potent force. >> yes. >> so i think what we're seeing right now besides the fact that pence is not very confrontational in general is just sort of an attempt to try and survey the landscape until we have a better sense of whether the entire gop, just the donor class or none at all are really still with former president trump. >> it's interesting ...

That -- exactly what raskin is saying here. taking that choice away from voters and preventing him from running again, that kind of rational in large part of what trump seized on to run successfully in the first place. and this is an important point if it goes back to what you and charlie were talking about here. the way that i think about the status in the party, the republican party is kind of three layers. the donor class has long kind of turned against trump and that time and again in a very smart third -- today the parker story with another donor from virginia saying that she wants desant...

On the ground saying what they said, as antonia kind of played for us there, that they are scrambling, as to what they're going to do. >> that's right. that is a real situation, and a few moments since trump came on the political scene that it felt like tipping points away from him and this feels like one of them, where republicans, and not necessarily the base, but the donor class, the operative class, a number of trump fellow republicans, are deeply frustrated with the way tuesday's midterms went. they had expected huge gains in the house, to possibly win the senate and now we know the house...

Relatively spark eye. he seemed to be pretty damn about this. how do you account for liz cheney, joe walsh, jennifer reuben. the people in the world that recognize this reality that the current republican party is not reflective of normal conservative sentiment around this country. and someone should change that. joe, you posted a picture, i think last night, with olivia troye. there seems to be lots of you out there. why can't there be a new movement? why can't there be a new party? why can't list cheney be a viable candidate for the next election? >> for now all we have a bunch of sycophants...

Pushback from some republicans will stop it. >> i agree with that. and all of the wish casting from other elected republicans that don't like trump, or the donor class, they don't like trump at this point, and they don't know how desantis will do on a national stage, and he has had -- i wouldn't call them stumbles, but they have been cringe worthy moments, that ad he put out with a fighter jet and jacket, and there are things he has taken, you know, that novice candidates do on the national stage that look strange. we will see how he does after tuesday. it's not a sure bet he will be able to t...