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Reducing debt, and people who don't use dynamic scoring miss that, whether they call themselves non-partisan or whatever, it is not very good economics. so it is very important to understand there would be another 12 million people in this country today working if we had grown at reagan rates rather than obama rates. that's the pain that americans are seeing. that's the damaged families and households and neighborhoods of 12 million people not working. we need to get growth back. that comes from lower taxes, less regulation, and i think more serious infrastructure spending. i think better by s...

Heard during the reagan years. during the reagan years -- >> there's no guarantee growing 4% a year. that's the number that donald trump pulled out during the campaign. there's no evidence of that that this will in anyway lead us to 4% growth. anyway. >> yes, there is. and what we had during the reagan years with lower marginal tax rates and some deregulation, we grew at 4% a year, during the obama years we grew at 2% a year, the difference between growing for a decade at 4% a year than 2% a year is $5 trillion more in revenue. $5 trillion goes a lot to reducing debt, and people who don't use ...

Elements of the tea party opposed to it, but overwhelmingly house republicans and house conservatives do like this. it gets them to a balanced budget within ten years, although one big caveat, assumes huge dynamic scoring from some of the tax cuts. it also just has an unprecedented cut when it comes to discretionary spending for nondefense measures. and so republicans really like that a lot, they love the reforms to medicaid, love the reforms to medicare, dismantling a lot of the social safety net. the senate is not going to take this up, but the best way to look at this is the party's politic...

He's been willing to contemplate are those that come from growth, from dynamic scoring, which is not -- everyone's idea of how to balance the budget. >> that's right. we saw him rapidly evolving from that position today. we started out, our interview, i said grover, in 1986, when you first did this pledge, the u.s. budget deficit was $200 billion. now it's a trillion. how can you say nothing has changed? he acknowledged things have changed, but he's trying to stick to his principles so when i talked to him about his relevance and whether he was like frosty the snowman and feeding away from us ...

But there's no doubt that if eric cantor is willing to at least vote on a deal that has new revenue, that that is a huge paradigm shift. and i think that gives us all hope, although there's still a long way to go, that there can be a deal that has the president has said for a long time, a balanced approach. >> but ruth, what are the democrats willing to give, because there are some democrats, some of the more liberal democrats who are saying let's go over the cliff. that gives us more leverage. >> there's extremes in both parties that say let's go over the cliff. grover norquist was saying it ...