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Stifle innovation in the workplace. >> quentin, where do you stand? >> why do you guys hate democracy? unions are one more player in the market. you want the kind of union -- >> you don't have to hate democracy to be against unions, my friend. >> the selfish purpose of the unions is asking for higher wages, asking for more benefits, and it's up to management whether or not to grant them. do you think wal-mart would have given any kind of health care if unions hadn't pointed out how bad wal-mart was at doing that? i don't. >> elizabeth? >> come on, look, look at the data and the data tells the ...

>> rich, some of these supermarkets -- they're terribly expensive places to shop. they squeeze every dime out of these poor people. at least now they'll have an option. >> yeah. very expensive to live in the big city. i'm surprised that quentin raises the question of democracy because the people who shop don't get a voice in this vote. and to -- >> of course they do. they go to cheaper stores. they drive to wal-mart elsewhere >> quentin, a lot of these people don't have cars in the area where wal-mart is trying to start a new shop. >> you know, if wal-mart doesn't come in, somebody else will a...

Offshore. first time we had an oil spill in 40 years like this. that's better than sending the money over, financing terrorists and the like. also at home, there is a process of natural gas called tracking that can get huge increases in natural ghast from the west and other parts of the country. we go full forward on that. but let's go everywhere. not just one place. >> with these new methods of getting gas and with nukes, we can really cut down on oil? >> you know, he's right and energy, the dirty, dangerous business, deaths in coal mines and such, we probably do have to keep doing the dirty ...

People can't be hired if wal-mart doesn't come in. >> what i worry about is you seem to be taking an attitude of, you will take it and you will be happy. i think unions have an important role in a democracy. >> nobody is forcing wal-mart to do that. it is a democracy and wal-mart should be allowed to sell where they want to set up without being prevented from doing so. >> all we're asking for is to be given an ability and the thing about unions, quentin loves democracy and then he says, the sentiment turned against unions. well, which one do you want? >> what's the boohoo about? >> wal-mart ha...

>> because management agrees to unions' terms. management is part of the process. if they don't like what unions are offering a in terms of pension, they say no. >> if unions are so great, why are 13% of the labor force is in unions? if they were so fantastic with what you claim is nonsense, why do statistics prove that union membership dropped so dramatically since the 50s. it totally undermines your argument. sorry, steve. >> because ever since patco, you had anti--union in this country. >> the unions in the private sector have been declines sips the 1950s. precisely because they're in for t...