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Exploring issues that affect leaders in the U. S. And around the globe. Howard fineman, an nbc news analyst who spent his tuesday in judge ellis courtroom marveling at Paul Manaforts wardrobe. Anyway, mimi, let me start with you. Define Obstruction Of Justice and is it something that has to be done in secret for it to be a crime . Sure, chuck. I want to answer the second part first. It does not have to be done in secret. The definition of Obstruction Of Justice, there are different prongs of it, depending on whether youre trying to interfere with witnesses or tamper with evidence. Its basicall...

You know, going back months seem to be trying to almost pressure certain witnesses. you know, there were tweets that he didn't want people to sort of -- it seemed like he was trying to get people to not be cooperative with the special counsel. now this seems more about trying to get it to end. and, you know, the idea that he can just end it any time, yes, i guess that's true. but even trump knows that that would cause quite a political storm and he's trying to get somebody else to do is dirty work for him. that's the way i look at it. >> i was just going to say, mimi, could you actually say th...

Howard fineman, an nbc news analyst who spent his tuesday in judge ellis' courtroom marveling at paul manafort's wardrobe. anyway, mimi, let me start with you. define obstruction of justice and is it something that has to be done in secret for it to be a crime? >> sure, chuck. i want to answer the second part first. it does not have to be done in secret. the definition of obstruction of justice, there are different prongs of it, depending on whether you're trying to interfere with witnesses or tamper with evidence. it's basically trying to impede an investigation corruptly, with corrupt intent...

Incriminating? you have said you thought this was obstruction in plain sight? >> i would say it's a good piece of evidence of obstruction in plain sight. and here's why the plain sight part doesn't matter. take what he wrote in the tweet, put it in a text to a close confidant and assume -- let's pretend the government found that text and read it. would it look like evidence of obstruction? i think here what we're saying, as you said, i mean you said it perfectly. if he called sessions into his office and told him to fire him or if he wrote what he thought was a secret e-mail to sessions saying...

To do this or get matt gates or mark meadows from the house to continue on this path. could you make that an obstruction case? >> yes. and again, this is not standing alone, right? it's going to be a piece of evidence together with many other tweets, many other statements and the actual acts that he did. remember what just is starting to come out now, that when he fired comey, it sounds like his close associates have told mueller that he knew flynn was under investigation, something he has denied. that could be a very strong part of an obstruction case. so you don't have to look at each act in...