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Anonymous, bill wilson. joining me now, dr. robbie ludwig, and gabby glazer who wrote that provocative piece. great to have you both here. >> thank you. >> i thought the piece was fascinating. there's some parallel reporting that's gone on about heroin addiction. what's the general thrust here? >> the general thrust is that we don't know -- we don't have numbers for how aa works. we have anecdotal evidence for it, which is the narrative that it worked for your uncle, it worked for your grandfather, therefore, it works. but we don't actually have a success rate. we don't have aa anonymous. it d...

>> the co-founder of alcoholics anonymous, bill wilson. great to have you both here. >> thank you. >> i thought the piece was fascinating. there's some parallel reporting that's gone on about heroin addiction. what's the general thrust here? >> the general thrust is that we don't know -- we don't have numbers for how aa works. we have anecdotal evidence for it which is the narrative that it worked for your uncle, it worked for your grandfather, therefore, it works. but we don't actually have a success rate. we don't have aa anonymous. it doesn't -- it's not studied by academic institutions bec...