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Leave but we want to keep things stable? is that even possible? >> well, it's -- you know, there are no easy outcomes here. but certainly you can leave and leave behind more stability than you found. the idea of just precipitously leaving without any sort of iterative process either within your own government or with regional powers, without any effort to set up a diplomatic process going forward, is a recipe for creating more problems than there are now. so i hear the argument and a valid argument that look, we can't stay forever. people who say well, we stayed in germany for 50 years. that's...

The point is you've got to have some kind of end state. a lot of people have been concerned about this sort of thing for a long time. and so it's i think fair to raise that issue but not in this kind of precipitous one day you don't me anything about, it the next day the president's decided we're just going to pull up and run. when you run, bad things can happen. >> one last question for you. the president seemed to suggest that american troops overseas were doing the job of suckers today. listen to this. we don't have the sun but i've got the verbiage. "america shouldn't be doing the fighting...

>> well, those institutions you talked about, joe, are really going to have their work cut out for them in 2019. it is incredible. look, i agree with you that this -- we seem to have entered -- you called it terminal -- an unacceptable zone, a kind of end state of this administration where we have total chaos. government is shut down, the markets are in free-fall, we have a treasury secretary who perhaps accidentally further destabilized the markets over the weekend with ill-advised phone calls to the heads of the major banks saying, don't worry about anything, so, of course, everybody worries...

State. and our end state since the end of world war ii in europe has been to help create a better society. to -- the marshall plan, the establishment of nato, all of those things were put together in order that people who had suffered the wounds and casualties of war could rise up again and become a stable people with stable governments. took a long time, but that was the end state. that's what presidents like bush were focused on as -- as they countered the soviet union at the time who were oppressing people. and there are many nations in europe now who still feel that oppression and who cele...

Understanding that there's a requirement for respect for all people, to treat people equally and with the dignity they deserve. now we don't always get it right as a country, but certainly when you're a leader and you exhibit those values and especially at the national level when you're exhibiting our national values of dignity, liberty, respect, freedom, other nations will join in. and they won't treat you as an outsider. they will want to be more like you are. and i think that's why president bush in 1990 was able to create that coalition of the willing to contribute to the freeing of kuwait...