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Then today after hours and hours of speculation, the vatican confirmed that pope francis did in fact meet with kim davis but refused to give any other details about said meeting. the reaction from across the political spectrum was swift. mike huckabee tweeted out, the pope recognized something that the d.c. and wall street chattering class will never understand. the pope's visit, which focused on immigration reform, poverty and climate change had left liberals, particularly liberal catholics or ex-catholics with a sea of goodwill toward this pontiff. so does a private meeting with kim davis wh...

Refused to give any other details about said meeting. the reaction from across the political spectrum was swift. mike huckabee tweeted out, the pope recognized something that the d.c. and wall street chattering class will never understand. the pope's visit, which focused on immigration reform, poverty and climate change had left liberals, particularly liberal catholics or ex-catholics with a sea of goodwill toward this pontiff. so does a private meeting with kim davis who said she's willing to go to jail to deny same sex couples equal rights guaranteed by the constitution, does this change tha...

Political spectrum was swift. mike huckabee tweeted out, the pope recognized something that the d.c. and wall street chattering class will never understand. the pope's visit, which focused on immigration reform, poverty and climate change had left liberals, particularly liberal catholics or ex-catholics with a sea of goodwill toward this pontiff. so does a private meeting with kim davis who said she's willing to go to jail to deny same sex couples equal rights guaranteed by the constitution, does this change that? debate it next. joining me now, john savage

Decided shift in being more open to the modern world in vatican two, and we've had a big argument since then about whether we should continue this openness that vatican two represented. i think on the conservative side what you've had is a all that's solid melts into air kind of reaction where the conservatives say, you know, you don't know where the church is anymore. there was a lot of wild experimentation. let's pull things in just so we can clarify what is catholic. the problem with that is that there are plenty of catholics out there who have simply left, who are drawn to god, to -- are d...

Catholics are also lapsed catholics and ex-catholics. there are many practicing catholics who are not rigidly locked in to the leadership of the bishop so there isn't anything new in that. and the controversy about abortion is, certainly, a minor part of the religious freedom issue, when the united states government can presume to tell a bishop that he has to perform abortions in his hospital, you are going to have a problem on your hand. i don't think the vast majority of people are seeing president obama as the champion of the common good. this is a turning point and he made a monumental err...