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>> thank you, wolf. >> we could learn paul manafort's sentence in the virginia case any moment now. if we get that word, of course, we'll interrupt this interview. let's talk about what's going on, t.s. elliott, the federal judge, reiterated these crimes are not related to collusion with russia. what does that tell you? >> well, what manafort has been charged and convicted of is common, garden variety tax evasion, financial fraud and we still don't know to what extent mueller, special counsel, has determined that he was engaged in any kind of effort to p undermine the election. >> the judge t....

That could be significant, right? >> yes, that could be significant but it also seems to be contradictory to the idea that he has given false testimony. i mean the testimony he gave seems to contradict the idea of these e-mails. >> yeah. >> and to that extent mueller's team will certainly look at that because that's a very traditional path to follow is looking at these sorts of false statements he may have made to congress and then he'll have another opportunity to get himself in trouble when they actually do interview him, and i'm certain they will be following up on that. >> but to be clear,...

Panicked. now they just sort of know, this is part of being a member of this administration, not dissimilar from badging in every day. so, they don't love it, they're uncomfortable with it but it's a daily reality they're learning to deal with. >> joyce, one of the things i understand could be a new reality for this white house is they have lulled themselves into a sense of complacency that mueller was clearly looking at obstruction and had let collusion go. i understand that the 13 indictments and rumors about what might be next has the white house staff that participated in the campaign, onl...

What if anything was taking place during the campaign. it looks from the initial things that are being pieced together here we're looking at what happened after the election. it raises it seems to me, a potential different question. not one about this issue of collusion during the election but about this idea of the logan act, about trying to set foreign policy, take actions before somebody is actually in office. conversations with the russians about sanctions involving israel and -- skaous excuse me, what the obama administration did last september. are we in post election or preelection real...