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Be counterintelligence issues, that russian influence was so significant that he thought an investigation was merited. now, you can argue that that was something -- yes, it is true that it was mccabe who -- who apparently initiated the formal investigation. but the question is, you know, were his motives legitimate? that is law enforcement, counterintelligence-based, or was it political? remember the thing that the president has always been saying is that mccabe's wife was running for the state senate in virginia as a democrat supported by terra mccolonel live who's alive with hillary clinton,...

Mueller is concerned. so gates will at some point give an account of what went on at that cigar bar meeting and that will help clarify at least to the extent we can what went on there. >> and more than likely it came from gates. but what manafort is so desperate to go in and tell a second round of lies knowing that without a pardon he'll spend the rest of his life in jail, mueller knows about it and he knows the circumstances, he knows why he lied, he knows what he lied about, and what the underlying lie was based on. and, you know, we're just going to have to wait and see. >> there's so much ...

Had said, i'll give you some consideration, you may not have to spend the rest of your life in jail if you now tell the truth. if it was just about enriching himself, why wouldn't he then say, okay, i was trying to get more business, why wouldn't it be open? so it comes down to why he would lie a second time about this? and it goes to the more provocative theory, which is he's holding something back that implicates the president or maybe the campaign, and he's going to continue to hold that back because ultimately what he wants is a pardon. that's the only way he gets out of jail. and the real...