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Making that case is going to basically have to show that in this case the driver of that van, who is the person who has been charged with this essentially had to have known that something horrible was happening to freddie gray and failed to do anything about it? >> well, it is interesting. we have got to play with the had to have known. or was smart enough to know that it is so obvious when you handcuff somebody and throw them in the back of the van and give them a rough ride or slam on the brakes and they are sliding around in the back, that bad things will happen. there are all these levels....

>> deprafdved indifference is the worst. then there is recklessness which has to do with perceiving a threat and ignoring it or not perceiving a threat that you should have perceived. we are doing these weird fine gradiations. in the law you have to define your way to how bad a crime is. that's what they are sort of trying to do with this. >> david feiga, laying it out. always veryily lus dating. thank you very much. >> my pleasure. great to see you, chris as hillary clinton attacks left, we will talk with the only other democratic candidate running against her. why did the new york mayor ...