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People and the ukrainian army. so what they're doing now is they're creating these fire bases that they're using to just bombard cities and as you rightly use the analogy of aleppo, or grosny. we have to contest, help ukrainians contest. the aerospace and maritime domains. these are steps in the right direction but the estimates are, jim, that the russians are going to inflict a million deaths on ukrainian people, create maybe 6 million refugees. are we just going to watch that happen? and so we have to balance the risk of inaction with the risk of action. >> that's my question to you, right. ...

They're now having to set up fire bases or be right up close with the assault infantry. you know, the air defense, all of that is increasingly vulnerable over these long supply lines that drivers, these conscript drafty drivers are going through. so, the artillery is -- yes, they are creating a major effect. but it's a bit wild in the fire, not particularly precise, in part because their infantry -- their ground forces and tanks -- are getting -- the tops are getting blown off of them. and they don't want to go into a house of an urban fight. so, they're using artillery to make up, if you will...

3-4 months. that was four or five years ago. it's time. we have to bring them home. >> is this a walk back, kevin? >> i don't know where he got that from where the u.s. was only going to be in syria 3-4 months. that's ridiculous. he said he wanted them out in 30 days. he called for immediate withdrawal, that was his language. it was so unclear. this is so backward of the normal way to plan a military withdrawal. what i have read and what i am hearing in reporting is that secretary mattis and the pentagon asked for more time to have an organized withdrawal. it takes time to take down fire bases...

Should be instructive. ♪ >> anthony: in 1965, the united states initiated a sustained bombing campaign called rolling thunder, hoping to destroy an elusive enemy in villages like this one. vinh moc, which was less than 20 miles from forward u.s. marine fire bases, just south of the dmz. this is where thanh was born. as the target of frequent bombings, the village of vinh moc moved underground. up to 100 feet down into darkness. >> anthony: the villagers carved over 5,000 feet of tunnels out of the earth, creating a complex

But ngu quoc thanh's experience should be instructive. ♪ >> ngu quoc thanh: that year when i was born, 1967, the fighting was very fierce. >> anthony: in 1965, the united states initiated a sustained bombing campaign called rolling thunder, hoping to destroy an elusive enemy in villages like this one. vinh moc, which was less than 20 miles from forward u.s. marine fire bases, just south of the dmz. this is where thanh was born. as the target of frequent bombings, the village of vinh moc moved underground. up to 100 feet down into darkness. >> anthony: the villagers carved over 5,000 feet of ...