Ground to die. >> that speaks to an argument about excessive force, which is quite obviously an appropriate discussion to be having based on what we've seen over the past month. and you can argue it whichever way you want to argue it, right? but when people take it to a racism place saying what we're suffering from here, what we're seeing here is just the tail end or the next chapter in centuries of racism. how do we get to that place in garner's case, for example? >> because we cannot ignore that race plays a role in how we police in america. >> how in garner's case, how? >> let me tell you h...