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Deterrent too. one of the things you have to decide in government is when you're formulating penalties for conduct, you have to decide what is the appropriate and what is the productive penalty in relation to what the thing you're talking about is. >> that's right. >> finding a deterrent is easy. it's a question of from killing back to lesser deterrents, where do you find the right one? >> that's right. i mean essentially it's a policy question. it's a moral question. and we have to protect not only our border, but we have to protect our values. and i'm afraid that right here the trump adminis...

Is what you get when you break the law is just utterly wrong and offensive. and i must say john kelly talks -- general kelly, the white house chief of staff, talks about how, well, this is an effective deterrent. you know, at a policy level, perhaps he's right. if you brutalize children, that may well indeed deter parents from being their kids. but, you know, my god, i mean we could gouge out their eyes. we could put out east german-style -- >> killing them would be a deterrent too. one of the things you have to decide in government is when you're formulating penalties for conduct, you have to...