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Was berms and fences. when isis took over that area between iraq and syria there's no border there. they have some check points, but there's easy to do. malcolm, one thing, i asked an hour ago, does the end of isis having territorial space and they still have a lot of it in syria, that still has to be dealt with, but that is coming to an end as well. when that's gone, does it have a material effect on terrorism if isis doesn't have physical land over which to govern? >> well, that's very difficult to project. because isis as a command post, as a central organization will be eliminated in iraq ...

They still have a lot in syria, but that's coming to an end as well. when that's gone, does it have a material effect on terrorism if isis doesn't have physical land over which to govern? >> that's difficult to project. isis as a command post, as a central organization will be eliminated in iraq and syria, but isis has been transitioning over the last year into another form, what we call a ghost caliphate. that's where they keep their materials and propaganda in cyberspace, and pushing these self-starting, zero dollar attacks, like you saw in london, like you saw in europe, in france. and with...