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Answer has got to be some version of lowering the rate but making sure that people pay getting rid of some of those loopholes. >> reform. tax cuts alone are very expensive, tax reform is very hard. what will it be tax cuts or tax reform? >> i think it's going to be reform. there is a big debate ongoing on many things including the border tax, do you pay for it. >> right. >> but you hit on a crucial issue, maybe they just go for the sugar high of tax cuts right away because the economy is only fair, maybe this could really get the economy roaring, but i think they want to go bigger. i think the...

Are already paying less than the number the president is floating. if the administration leaves those in place and reduces the corporate tax rate revenue will plunge, that's the second issue. tax cuts are expensive. if companies pay less, individual taxpayers are on the hook to make up the difference. a tax policy center study last year which looked at that initial trump 15% tax proposal shows it would cost $2.4 trillion in lost revenue over the deck decade, $240 billion a year. that's about the same as the government spend on food stamps, jobless benefits and child nutrition. the big question...

Story, maybe not a good story for the long market in the long-term is that they really don't have a clue on how to pay for it and i think they will pay for it by assuming growth that will be extraordinary and maybe illusory. >> in our cnn money store we're calling that the magic wand of growth to pay for it. let me ask you, ellis, we also heard the president may be stepping away, may be blinking on this promise to put wall funding on budget negotiations. has he learned something from the healthcare debate? >> yes, don't bet all the marbles on something that you can't make happen in washington....

And u.s. foreign engagements. i think it's on economics, too. i think that gary cohn and mnuchin have won. i think their agenda is much more pro-wall street. they don't like trade wars, things like that. but to a large extent, the bannon departure makes a big difference. >> that will be an interesting story to follow in the days ahead. again, to arizona, he'll probably please that base with an immigration message tonight. something surprising from senator susan collins yesterday about the prospect of 2020 when she was asked do you think president trump will end up the party's nominee in 2020. ...

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