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Were betting against it. betting against them. it was crazy. now i think where goldman is -- whether what they did is illegal or not, i have no idea, but is it right and proper to help some guy design bonds that you know are going to go bad? the people at goldman knew exactly what they were doing. in other instances, it's pretty clear they made the same bet john paulson did. they're only one of a couple of firms that didn't end up owning the stuff when it all came crashing down. they had their own bets against the market in place. >> we'll have more with michael. stand by, more with michael in...

They duped people into buying things that they shouldn't have bought. now, there is -- it does make you wonder what the people who bought these things were thinking of. and i think this is one of the strange subplots of this whole sub prime thing -- >> by the way, the people who bought these weren't mom and pop on main street. i mean, these are big firms, these are players who -- >> it's german state banks. the german state bank was the biggest buyer of this. but look, what happened in the sub prime market the only people doing the analysis on the loans were people like paulson who were bettin...

This thing, and used them to sell it to investors. so that they -- essentially, they duped people into buying things that they shouldn't have bought. now, there is -- it does make you wonder what the people who bought these things were thinking of. and i think this is one of the strange subplots of this whole sub prime thing -- >> by the way, the people who bought these, according to "wall street journal," weren't mom and pop on main street. i mean, these are big firms, these are players who -- >> it's german state banks. yes. the german state bank was the biggest buyer of this. but look, what...