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Modern-day president at this point in his presidency. and i think a number of things happened. one is, we saw some abuse, or what people perceived as abuse, in the pardon system, and so i think that frightened other presidents. you know, bill clinton had a problem at the end of his presidency with mark rich. people saw it as a quid pro quo. >> mark rich was someone who was extremely wealthy, his wife was very connected in democratic politics, donated a lot of money. he was, i believe, on the lamb, right? this is not someone who had faced justice and done time. this is someone who had fled from...

Ramifications for your pardons. why are we seeing this huge decline in pardons? >> right, apples-to-apples, president obama is still very, very low, compared to any modern-day president at this point in his presidency. and i think a number of things happened. one is, we saw some abuse, or what people perceived as abuse, in the pardon system, and so i think that frightened other presidents. you know, bill clinton had a problem at the end of his presidency with mark rich. people saw it as a quid pro quo. >> mark rich was someone who was extremely wealthy, his wife was very connected in democrati...