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Appearances on fox news, we'll find out when the submarine surfaces and there is a new indictment. that's the point in time where we know what he has. but i've often pondered the irony of this refusal to give mueller an interview by the president when he tweets it out every morning. and much of the questions that you would want to ask as a prosecutor are there in plain sight already. >> and he's tweeted -- to mike's point, he has tweeted his peak about mueller wanting the job of fbi director. today was the first time that i heard that was something he was angry about after learning mueller was...

Deals. some of those big business deals never happened so what was going on in that relationship? what was he doing? what kind of money might he be asking for and at one point he seemed to suggest, sam, that he thought mueller was more interested in the trump organization than he was in the campaign. now, look, sam yesterday was so rambling and disoriented almost that i'm not sure that i would use him as a reliable witness in what mueller is actually after given how he was responding to things yesterday, but le seemed to flag that it was the -- the business side of things more than the campaig...

Campaign, it suggests that mueller is far from over in his investigation. >> you look at the like i hood that they have. a tremendous amount of information. when i saw it, one thing that came to mind, follow the data. when you get that list of e-mail, phone, text stuff, you start to get not only what people are saying but what the network of contacts is. meta data. when you get dozens of people involved, even if they choose not to talk to the mueller team or the grand jury, you can see who talked to whom. how often did they speak? when did somebody come into the circle? it is really instructiv...

Cooperate. he also suggests that mueller may have something on the president. let's assess with our experts. what do you make of this? >> after i stop laughing, there are a couple things. i don't care what he thinks they have. i care what he knows. if he was in there for what he says was five and a half hours and they want to talk to him, there are a couple questions they have. either he knows more or he said something different handle the other witnesses and they want to trap him or them in a lie. on the issue of not speaking, we used to say uncle bob, director mueller. if he says he won't sp...

And that's where someone like sam nunberg and anyone who fits in, can offer phone logs and other things that transpired between the campaign and trump and others in moscow. >> i think that's important. phil made this point earlier. we have a tendency to focus on the -- i think he may have something on donald trump. based on the rest of the interview. i'm not sure sam nunberg is the world's most credible source on that investigation. i think it is important to note, it is making the connections. he says the subpoena he had to list all these people. >> he also said that he believes that mueller ...