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Let's turn back to the news as we try to get more people vaccinated against covid. we heard stories of anti-vaxers. but our next guest said we're focussing on the wrong people. we should focus on the minds we can change. joining us now, contributing writer for the atlantic. good morning, it's great to have you with us. let's read from the latest piece. in it you write this, this is a pretty straightforward example of how the current public sphere, shaped by human tendencies, politics, financial incentives and platform and algo rhythmic design is hampering us. villains make for bet erstories an...

Night stuff? how wise is that from your point of view? >> well, i mean, if you're comfortable out there, it's super wise. it doesn't matter if you show human tendencies, if you have -- the things that you do that friends make fun of you about and all of that stuff, when you look human, you look good. if you're uptight out there, it's not a great move. obama did very well. >> now, you did bill clinton, you did al gore. what do you try to put in your mind to get yourself ready to do someone else, like a bill clinton? >> oh, with bill clinton i put in my mind a bedside vigil, somebody's sick, we ...