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I mean, in '79, in '80, '85, when you worked on the apartheid, you knew that right was on the side of south africa, but did you know that justice would be on their side? >> i thought it was extraordinary that there was support for apartheid. and this was probably worth remembering. our -- a lot of governments, our governments in different phases kind of supported apartheid. you know? and it is -- so it looked like they had a lot of support. but i think we all knew that freedom, you know, and justice and -- is a human right. and no human wrong could contain that. >> so is it sadness you feel to...

But did you know that justice would be on their side? >> i thought it was extraordinary that there was support for apartheid. and this was probably worth remembering. our -- a lot of governments, our governments in different phases kind of supported apartheid. you know? and it is -- so it looked like they had a lot of support. but i think we all knew that freedom, you know, and justice and -- is a human right. and no human wrong could contain that. >> so is it sadness you feel today? >> both. i'm feeling -- i did feel a bit at sea there for a bit. but now i'm seeing the people in