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Feeling that they've been cut out of this. and then by virtue of that, saying it's unfair. so, that's one argument. but if they were to embrace participation in the hearings, then they, in effect, legitimize them. and they've also been arguing that it is an illegitimate, sham process. so, that means the president has sort of a rock and a hard place decision. if he takes part, he can really be constrained in calling it illegitimate. if he doesn't, then he continues the ability to not mount his own defense within the confines of the impeachment hearings. so, that's the dilemma, and we'll have to...

Saying and what he's actually doing. >> and it's broadly into international affairs -- because if they're going to be convinced along democratic lines, they need to see something clear about him doing something wrong intentionally. >> the evidence in favor of the fact that donald trump exercised inappropriate use of power but you're right, it doesn't seem to be budging public opinion. and nothing donald trump could do could change public opinion. they've stuck with him through thick and thin. and i don't think there's anything, barring a catastrophic event that's going to change that. >> and s...

All-consuming impeachment finding. the staffing levels are low. the people there are fatigued about the incredible pace of the stories and scandals this white house has had to deal with. as much as they have been talking about they would welcome a impeachment finding, this is something that is going to wear on them day after day after day. and the fact that so many people around the president told me when the mueller probe finally ended they felt like a cloud had been lifted from the white house, they could finally sort of try to get some stuff done, they could start focusing on re-election. a...

>> think the way we have to look at this is how do we make sure the public understands and knows what's in the mueller report. the senate is not going to convict donald trump if the house impeaches him. that's pretty obvious. they won't even look cross ways at him when he does outrageously bad things and they convict him on the impeachment finding. so what is the goal here. the goal is to make sure the public is fully informed of what the president actually did to obstruct justice. there is ways to do that including making mueller testify and he knows how important it is that he publicly talke...

Democrat from missouri, clair mccaskill and msnbc analyst. i'm curious your read on all of this as someone who had to navigate representing missouri and a state where democrats were not necessarily the majority at all for many years and navigating the imperatives of what the party may want to do and what you had to tell your voters. >> i think the way we have to look at this is how do we make sure the public understands and knows what's in the mueller report. the senate is not going to convict donald trump if the house impeaches him. that's pretty obvious. they won't even look cross ways at hi...