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This is designed to damage his credibility as a witness in the mueller investigation. what's your reaction to that? >> well, it's true. and that's probably what -- i mean, trump has that in mind as a practical goal. it seems moo tee-hee just as the more petty goal in mind of just gratuitously taking away the pension of someone who has crossed him. >> but, harry, can i and you to focus as a legal practitioner on the actual practical effect of this, on the perceived credibility of andrew mccabe as a witness going forward, if you were in the special prosecutor's office and you were in charge of h...

With impeachment material. but yes, he will testify if it comes to a proceeding that comey told him exactly what he said he said and the defense attorney will say, isn't it true, mr. mccabe, that you were found to have committed misconduct? isn't it true that you were fired, et cetera, et cetera? and that impeachment will have whatever value it has in front of a jury. it's true, as ben and ruth says, that part of what's going on, we obviously don't know exactly what he did and it's odd that horwitz found these things. i think it's secondary next to two points. whatever he did, the timing of hi...

It makes me wonder about the truth of it. >> harry litman, i want to go to one of the points that mccabe raises. he believes this is a design to damage his credibility as a witness in the mueller investigation. what's your reaction to that? >> well, it's true. and that's probably what -- i mean, trump has that in mind as a practical goal. it seems to me he just has the more petty goal in mind of just taking away the pension of someone who has crossed him -- >> can i ask you to focus, as a legal practitioner, on the actual practical effect -- >> yes. >> -- of this, on the perceived credibility ...

This independent party. all of those documents he can say is attorney/client privilege, i can't send it off to law enforcement, can't bring it over. >> shepard: what you are saying under the guise of transparency they are able to withhold? >> absolutely. >> shepard: randy that doesn't sound right. >> it is a brilliant move. if i'm the prosecution these are pennsylvania local prosecutors who typically don't get involved with the form areer -- former fbi director and former federal judge. lord only knows what they are thinking. he's going to do his own investigation he may create impeachment mat...