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Withdrawn from russia, i don't think they will go back in whilst putin remains in power. so that isolation which is as much voluntary as it is mandated will remain. the second thing is europe -- it learned its lesson now. it will change its lesson fundamentally to release itself from dependence on russian oil and gas. it may take some time in the case of gas so on and so forth to, but that will happen because it's absolutely inevitable because no one wants to be in a question again of having a conflict between what you need to do and your dependence on russian energy. >> before i let you go, i...

Future relationship with russia, but i don't -- i don't favor pushing the ukrainians into a premature negotiation just as i wouldn't hold them back if they consider there is an optimum moment maybe after the summer months. >> and then you get to the game of what does the west ask for in return for the relaxation of sanctions, which is presumably one of the key russian demands is going to be. it just strikes me this is going to go on for a long time. again, one of putin's miscalculations is i don't think this somehow magically all disappears. the sanctions have been put in place. the west is go...

President of the united states do? >> there's not much he can do, but in coordination with the allies with nato and the eu and the rest of the free world he can try to change putin's calculus by making the war even costlier for him. that means an oil embargo of some sort. that's a very difficult thing, especially for europe, to pull off. but i think the pressure has to be ratcheted up on putin in some way so that we -- you know, he's got a very high sort of risk tolerance, and the russians can lob rockets and cruise missiles at ukrainian cities indefinitely, until they run out, and there's ver...

Provoking some sort of political process in russia where the war, if it becomes bloody and prolonged, actually backfires on him is probably the most important thing thatis probably the most important thing that is holding him back. but when i say he holds all the cards, it is nothing that ukraine has done or nato has done that brought this crisis. this crisis was completely engineered. inside putin's head. it engineered. inside putin's head. it sounds as if it is almost a distraction to what is going on at home, but there is something, isn't there, and president putin's psyche about geographic...

>> i think he's a little unhinged. i really do. and that's why these statements bear watching. and i hope, perhaps, someone in our government, secretary of defense is attempting to seek clarification of these statements. >> from the russian counterparts? >> exactly. >> and what is your sense trying to get inside the kremlin, inside putin's inner circle? are there people around him who can, you know, keep that under a lid if putin wants to -- >> i don't know -- >> wants to do something dramatic. >> what we've seen with these at a distance meetings that he has, because he's paranoid about covid ...