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that is probably true. if you get good actionable intelligence out of that enhanced intear division or like torture, i have great respect for john. he and i lived together. he is a tough guy. in america he has a right to be wrong on cowell of these things. john is a good man. he did at mitt he got some good intelligence out of that. i'm so, brief strongly, people write rules on torture, there has to be rules, seriouses mental, physical, permanent, bordering on death, we need some definition. around i believe what they did do not raise the bar to that definition of torture. jon: so submitting abu zubaydah, subjecting him to waterboarding, that in your view is not torture? >> it was not. in my view and, you know, i give, somebody else an example one time, what would i do? say i'm dropping my granddaughters off at school and i see a guy run away from the