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Same information through other approaches, i think, is always going to be an open question. >> well, it's interesting, because leon panetta is part of the obama administration, and the president has emphatically disowned torture. former cia agent jack reich joins us now from minneapolis. jack, thanks for being with us. >> absolutely. >> now, i think that director panetta makes the key distinction that they may have been able to get this information through other interrogation methods. however, the first shred of information, the code name of this courier that was bin laden's trusted, you know,...

Those years, doesn't like torture. dianne feinstein is chair of the intelligence committee on the senate side and she doesn't like it the bush people as a brown say it works, i'm not for it. it looks like it is murky. your view? >> i'm somebody who is against torture but i don't think all coercive, harsh, stressful interrogation procedures are necessarily torture. i think what we know in this instance or the evidence is pretty strong is that harsh interrogation methods, particularly of khalid shaikh mohammed and abu farad al jibby gave the first information that led to the trail that led to bi...

If it were to lead to captors like bin laden, is there concrete profit that it works? >> what we do know is from the two centuries from american prisoners of war o have been captured and interrogated, door chur does not work. we have an entire school structure in defense that teaches torture does not work. so you can claim that, but what we know that actually does work is by co-oping the values of these prisoners, showing prisoners that we are not what they believe that we are and showing them that there is more cooperating with us as better effect. and some people say al qaeda is a unique org...

This is murky. i'm getting almost like a rorschach test, depending who you ask, you get different responses. john mccain, of course, who was a prisoner all those years in vietnam at the hanoi hilton, of course, was tortured many of those years, doesn't like torture. dianne feinstein is chair of the intelligence committee on the senate side and she doesn't like it. the bush people, as a group, say it works. i'm not for it. it looks like it is murky. your view? >> i'm somebody who is against torture but i don't think all coercive, harsh, stressful interrogation procedures are necessarily torture...

Are not coercive work better. >> since we're talking about interrogation methods, bin laden was killed, as we both know. but had he been captured alive, would it be added more value, would it have had more value alive, basically for the nation information we could have gotten from him? >> i don't believe there's anything we could have gotten from osama bin laden that was more valuable than destroying and decapitating the leadership structure of the organization. and more importantly, osama bin laden is the ideal logical heart and find of the bin ladenist movement, of his entire middle eastern ...