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Now perverse as the rapport will be by definition when you have an interrogator and a detainee, it's a hugely unbalanced relationship. nonetheless, it's a human relationship. and i concluded at the -- as the process went on for me, at the same place that the fbi has been from the beginning. they've been quite consistent, and i think honorably so and directly so to state that the way you interrogate someone and obtain information is by establishing a rapport and you can try to manipulate someone but you don't put them under extreme physical, mental stress. >> so this country in your opinion, wa...

It's a hugely unbalanced relationship. nonetheless, it's a human relationship. and i concluded at the -- as the process went on for me, at the same place that the fbi has been from the beginning. they've been quite consistent, and i think honorably so and directly so to state that the way you interrogate someone and obtain information is by establishing a rapport and you can try to manipulate someone but you don't put them under extreme physical, mental stress. >> so this country in your opinion, was, obviously, wrong if and when it waterboarded those who were in captivity. you question the na...