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To try desperately to generate some sort of information to put some of the president's enemies in jail. i know this from personal experience. in some really sad way, i'm not surprised with some of these revelations. >> jeff sessions first and then william barr. norm, the idea of, well, this is what the government does, no. this is not the same thing as going after congressman matt gaetz for alleged behavior where you have proof, this is an investigation in search of a crime, in search of proof. not the opposite. big distinction? >> yes. there are cases where there have been serious allegations...

Case is one that comes to mind, where there's investigate tools that are deployed. but, chris, this was a pure act of political retaliation. it was abuse of power. we talked this week about the president's former lawyer and the extraordinary things the white house counsel said, describing the president's behavior has crazy stuff, only he didn't use the word "stuff." this is more of the same and it makes you wonder how much more of this is going to come out, how much more abuse happened by trump and by those who were doing his bidding. and in the department of justice, that is just appalling. a...