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Times", harry litman, who will be with us tomorrow, are saying this is a primer on the practice of flipping witnesses. we know that michael cohen did not have a standard cooperation agreement. for those of us who play lawyers on tv and don't exactly know the distinction, explain it to us. >> it was a cooperation agreement -- if you read the memoranda, it's really a study in how much cooperation the government considerati government considers it cooperation. they're debriefing the witness and if it is of value to them, they will have him plead guilty as soon as possible, but hold off his senten...

Giuliani confirmed a piece of it, i don't think they want this trial. this one is much closer to the russia situation than the previous trial. >> well, that's always been the question of if manafort does cooperate, what does he have, what could he share, and how far does it go in the campaign apparatus and administration? >> is it cooperation or he doesn't want to do what ruth said, he doesn't want a trial? >> i think you're exactly right. and those close to manafort's legal team have remained very tight-lipped, very confident, told me they have planned a, b, c, d all the way around, telling m...

We're learning in the woodward book. that might have prompted them to come out because people were trying to throw cold water on the woodward book and that person or this group send hey, this is true stuff and we have to give it cooperation. >> david chalian i think it's interesting when people like chris murphy, democrat from connecticut, and corey lewandowski sort of almost agree on something and they sort of almost agree that this person should not have come down as an unnamed author of such an article, that to do so is either counterproductive in the case of chris murphy or gutless is what...

Good to know. and i just learned that steve bannon is once again delaying his cooperation, if we can call it cooperation. i'm not sure what you call it at this point. >> nbc news hasn't confirmed that he's not going to appear. we heard from the horse's mouth, mike conway, who's sort of the acting chair on russia matters that there has been a subpoena. there's something going on here that is i think hard to dismiss as a koicoincidence in terms of bannon being requested to speak to mueller, his lawyer saying he'll be happy to cooperate, and him showing up at house intel, and this fake debate tha...

Grand jury subpoena and he had told everybody in the white house, i want to cooperate, i want to get out from under this, it's not going to be a good look if he says no i won't cooperation. maybe we can answer written questions or we'll agree on the parameters, but he's going to have to give some information to bob mueller. >> i thought of you and ken delaney, this is from jab goldsmith, he served in the bush doj, he was head of the office of fiscal policy. why wasn't rosen steve recused? he possesses information about the president's beliefs and motives in the firing of jim comey, since he ap...