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Security clearances as he pleases, can it be an abuse of power? >> i think so. this is just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean that you can do it corruptly. so whether it's firing employees, whether it's issuing pardons or whether it's ordering a security clearance, if you're doing something with a corrupt intent you lose your absolute ability to do it. i think it could be an abuse of power if the normal process was subverted or stantsed. >> where is the corruption? >> i don't know yet. what the reporting is suggesting is that the normal process was not followed. that shou...

It would be like malpractice to do that. that being said, they've done a lot of strange things in the president's defense team so it wouldn't totally shock me. >> real quickly, is it the lawyer's problem or would it be the president's problem? >> the optics are terrible. legally, it could be terrible. the pardon power is almost absolute, but you can't use it corruptly, and if there were conversations whether it was directly or indirectly through surrogates like lawyers, terrible optics and terrible legality for all involved. >> joe moreno, and ross garber, thanks as well. the governor is calli...

i think it's an economic issue. i think if you look -- i'm not going to absolve the democratic leadership in chicago and it's been that way for decades, their responsibility for not addressing root problems and, in fact, exacerbating them. the public sector unions in chicago run that city and they run it corruptly, and they deprive communities of color of the resources that they need, that would-- >> couldn't you make that argument in other cities, too? >> i would make that argument in other cities, but when you look at these communities and when i was growing up in the chicago area, the ro...

History, we can't start asking about the motives of president. we have to ask whether his act was justified under article 2 of the constiution. same thing with senators. you can't question senators or congressman. you can't question the motive of judges. we have immunity for all three branchs of the government. not surprising we have it for the president as well. >> quickly, jeffrey, you have the last word. >> richard nixon was about to be impeached and he resigned. he had the power to do both. to tell the fbi and to tell the cia what to do. he was forced out of office because he did it corrup...

We all heard the case about how he was doing it like a mafia figure. the fact of the matter is that trump has unfettered pardon power but he can't use it corruptly. and you know, and michael cohen, but all the crimes, obstruction, lying, et cetera, campaign finance, goes list by list. that's exactly what that cast of characters looks like -- >> laura: you agree that article 2, section 2, clause one -- >> he can fire comey but not for corrupt reasons. >> laura: you're saying the pardoning of dinesh de souza could be tantamount to obstruction of justice. >> every single one of those crimes -- >>...