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Struggled through this period to try to manage their client. he tends to take some of his own counsel. there's one story that we heard where they advised him specifically not to comment on a particular matter and after that meeting before had they even got back to their office, he had tweeted about that very issue. so, the president feels like he's innocent. he feels like he can follow his gut instincts and how to fight back against this russia story and it's not what his lawyers want to hear and what his lawyers are trying to do is create some sort of professional legal boundaries around the ...

Behnenson opinion writer for "washington post" and editor at large for "reason" magazine pat welch. joel, let me start with you. if you want to talk about where your campaign's head was at this point. but when you hear that now in this meeting there were a fifth and sixth person. what do you think? >> well, first of all, we are in real time living through a case study of crisis mismanagement. the fact that every day we are learning something that is appalling is shameful. >> and that directly contradicts what the principal in this has said on television in a statement. >> exactly. >> and, look...