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Spectacle volatility unfold during this whole process. it was ugly no matter what. but does running on an anger platform remedy it? >> hillary clinton, whether purposely or not, is running the case for michael avenatti 2020. both parties are driven by ideology. that's why they're parties. they are co her cohered by a se ideology and values. it's a little oversimplified. i do, however, think, the there be a real debate as democrats look to who they want and there's going to be a million -- 30-plus kpcandidates. there will be a debate do we

Carl rove argues that this debate gave mitt romney a chance to stand on equal footing. do you think the race has been fundamentally changes? was it always going to be tied in the end? >> the conventional wisdom about debates is a little oversimplified. there is about a four-point swing we can see based on debates. that's exactly what governor romney got more or less in terms of a shift toward him. in a close race, that can make a big difference. when a race is 10 or 15 points apart, four points is barely noticed. this was always destined to be a close race. it's likely to be a close race. at s...