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Good p.r. or if that's the real deal, but let's pretend for the moment that's real. your reaction? >> i think it is suicidal. i think it's idiotic. i agree with the professor. here is the real piece here. -- the real key here. based on everything we know, they don't have anything close to an obstruction case on the president. but it is much easier, in addition to the stuff that professor dershowitz said, it ic much easier to prove a case of lying to the government undere 18 u.s. code section 1,001 than it is to prove an obstruction c case, particularly based on what they have. it has to be mat...

There is no other evidence other than the intent of the president. and that's to come from the president's mouth. then the question becomes don, what will be the nature of the interview? will it be an under oath interview or not under oath? it really doesn't matter much. if it's under oath and a person makes a material lie they can be charged with 1621 perjury. if it's not under oath and they make a material false statement they can be charged with 1,001 making a false statement, carrying considers o serious criminal penalties. that's not so much a matter of importance whether under oath or no...

And i think it has to because i think the law of the land will require it if mueller pushes the proposition. >> you think it's going to happen. >> will be a serious -- i think it has to happen. because the way the law sets up with nixon versus the united states, and clinton versus jones, the president really can't resist testifying. mueller has to show that he can't get the evidence from another source as a predicate for the interview. and i think that with respect to obstruction of justice and the collusion conspiracy stuff, there is no other evidence other than the intent of the president. a...