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Methods shows the methods work, number one, and protected the american people, number two. if you are going to go like panetta did, well maybe we could have gotten it another way, fine, fine. the fact of the matter is these people are on the record of saying it never works, blah-blah-blah. now, the value question. the value question -- >> well let me respond to that. let me just say that in fact, the sequence as i understand it from the people in the intelligence community is what ksm did is he lied about the identity of the courier and that set off the alarms -- >> that has not been confirmed...

Enhanced, you know, torture type of thing, that somehow led to bin laden. it might have contributed to bin laden's capture and his death, but we don't know that that was the only way as the president said to have gotten that information. and the second part -- >> bill: let me stop you there. >> it's not in our values. >> bill: we will get to values later. look, juan, you can make a theory out of anything. the fact, let's stay on the facts, all right? everybody involved in this operation says that khalid sheikh mohammed and other waterboarding guys, three of them. pinpointed this courier, this ...