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Without gathering any useful intelligence. the head of the cia disagreed. >> it is our considered view that the detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques provided information that was useful and was used in the ultimate operation to go against bin laden. >> so here's what i'm thinking. that the cia was put in an untenable position with no desire other than to protect the nation. it wasn't pretty, mistakes were made. but they did their best. and i refuse to believe that there's some cabal of masochists who used 9/11 as a means of redirecting the agency. they had to have ...

That these techniques were working, because i can't believe that they would have otherwise conducted themselves in this fashion. >> well, they may have, you know, been the good soldier who does what they are directed to do. i don't -- i don't think the directive for this activity came from the cia or any other part of the american intelligence community. i believe that it, like a number of other things involving 9/11, came directly from the white house. >> director brennen on thursday said that these individuals are patriots. does senator bob graham agree with that characterization? >> i think...

Is a body of research out there that says that's true. >> well, we had never done it before, michael. one thing. second thing, we are at war, and third, we were directed to do it. do you want to say to the president, well, mr. president, you want this done, but let us research it for a year-and-a-half or six months or however long. this is not the way the world works, michael. and i have to say that the reason these enhanced interrogation techniques that the drones came about is because president bush, the first president -- or second president bush, president clinton and president obama are e...

Has the -- have the will to do what you've just described? i think that the drone campaign is utilized, because america has lost her stomach to send men and women overseas to war with the islamic state. >> i think that's -- entirely right, michael. it's going to take a calamity to turn things around. shakespeare said first kill all the lawyers. well, i think it's first kill all the teachers. we've taught several generations of american students that war never solves anything, we have idiots in the military now who tell us that you can't defeat an ideology with military force and i suggest they...

Eits, they could have had whatever information they want on it, and they were given indeed detailed briefings. often, congressmen and senators don't come to meetings, because they don't want to know. and in their place, they send staff members to be briefed on this. on a particular program. and then they can say they never attended or that they didn't know. >> well, i'm going to stick with this theme. michael scheuer, thank you for being here. i appreciate your time. >> pleasure, sir. just ahead, what did congress know about the cia's griffinter gas stations? a key senator who says i should ...