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Certifying it and passing it on to the federal government, then his truthful testimony would not incriminate him. he'd have no reason to plead the fifth and he can testify and frankly become one of the most sharply incriminating witnesses against his former client donald trump. so even though the grand jury proceedings are secret so we may not know these things right away, i suspect we'll know them before too long. >> all right. former congresswoman elaine loria and michael sheerer, thank you. stick around. when we come back, the house gop's courting of extremists continues a meeting today inv...

To me it means we have to take that step back from being hand in glove with the defense. a reminder that senator murkowski is on our list of key senators to watch in the weeks to come. she's not up for reelection until 2022 but she has been known to break from party lines before including voting against brett kavanaugh the supreme court nominee. cnn's lauren fox and tamara keith. and from west palm beach, florida, michael sheerer with "new york times." let's talk a little bit about murkowski. she can raise concerns about the process but ultimately the key question is how does she vote, how doe...

Just say the yes is full. you don't have to approve them. it was a striking moment that underscored everything else in the story, which is that, you know, administration officials were constantly having to kind of walk the president back from the precipice. walk him back from the edge of what could be a crisis, whether it's the actually closing the border, which they got, you know, republicans and business types and others to say this would destroy the economy, or whether it's legally saying to people he works for you can't do that. >> it's fascinating. incredible reporting i look forward to t...

More breaking news. exclusive report in the "new york times" documenting the lengths to which sources say president trump was prepared to go to stop mierpgts crossing the southern border. just a few of the remarkable details the white house insiders told "the new york times," the president they say wanted a water-filled trench filled with armgts or snakes constructed as a barrier in addition to the wall. and apparently talked about it so much that white house personnel actually went and tried to price it out pl also suggest nag rgt migrants be shot in the legs to slow them down or stop them. t...

Business with -- with people who get on his wrong side. as you said, ana, experts pretty much agree that the nd a's are unenforceable, probably unconstitutional in terms of how the president makes his threats and sort of sees how he can manage his own employees. >> michael, our reporting is the president viewed westerhout like a daughter when you read about her role in the white house she comes across as a hope hicks 2.0. what do you know about her replace with the president? >> one of the things that has always characterized in white house is that it doesn't operate with the normal discipline...