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>> and is like karl rove in that aspect. i think i called him recently one of the fathers of modern wedge politics. >> yeah. >> it -- i'm not sure. i can't predict what kind of president he would be. whether he would leave that behind after having won an election, or whether he would work that to further benefit. obviously you remember rove wanted to install a republican majority for the foreseeable future. that didn't quite work out. >> well, so scott henry, thank you so much. obviously in being the grandfather or godfather of american wedge politics. quite different from president obama in t...

>> you know, a number of the people that i talk to for a recent story i did, and i went back and talked to people who had worked with him when he was speaker, worked with him before he was speaker. they're very surprised. they didn't see this coming. and i think that, yes, they -- people -- they imagine that people are out there kind of thinking, this guy is going to be able to tgo head to head wit the president at the debates. he knows the lay of the land. i think many of the tea party people who wanted the outsider are modifying what they want. they realize there's no one else who's running ...

They're very surprised. they didn't see this coming. and i think that, yes, they -- people -- they imagine that people are out there kind of thinking, this guy is going to be able to go head to head with the president at the debates. he knows the lay of the land. i think many of the tea party people who wanted the outsider are modifying what they want. they realize there's no one else who's running for president who fits that mold. >> now, scott, i have to say, i read the preinterview that you had with one of the maddow staff producers and i got a chill because the language you used is that he...

During the debate. were you more surprised by the comment, by the doubling down or by the reaction of the other candidates to this claim? >> i was very disappointed by the candidate. first, i was disappointed by his ignorance, particularly after he had talked so passionately in a heartfelt way of those of hispanic consent living in gray areas of the united states. you could somewhat callously say these, too, are an invented people. in the middle east, the palestinians are not invented. i'll use one of george w. bush's middle east avisers on the national security council, essentially paraphrasi...

Distracted by exotic ideas. one of them, the notion you can have an electromagnetic pulse is actually scientifically correct. we could all go back to vacuum tubes as we once thought about during the cold war to keep ourselves from being vulnerable to that. but it's so beyond the kind of regular experience. it raises fundamental questions, again, about how he would think about war and conflict and setting up systems where the united states can pursue its interests boldly and where its vulnerabilities are. if we have a kind of, you know, professor, who's distracted by something that's so exotic ...