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Is -- it took taxpayer money, but, it became one of the most profitable of the wall street banks. and, basically, what they were doing was, they were taking these things called cdos and, you can call them xyz, abcs, but as you said, they were the riskiest of the mortgage instruments. they were designed to fail, and they were designed by a hedge fund guy who made a killing on the whole -- >> gregg: treep 3.7 billion dollars, and he knew they'd go down and they were the worst of the worst subprimes and the clients buying the bonds would only make a profit if the value gained, right? >> exactly. ...

>> but the question i have is was this clearly illegal, or was this such uncharted terrain because these are new exotic products that there weren't even laws written to cover this yet? >> no, no. fraud is fraud. clearly they lied to their clients. they sthed is a good thing to buy at the same time they were selling it short and helping mere paulson sell it short. so they obviously knew it was not a good thing to buy. they had the guy selling it short pick the mortgage instruments to put into this particular thing, abacus so, he knew which ones were the worst ones. he picked the worst ones, kno...

Higher taxes for healthcare, higher taxes on the state and local levels and not only that, you're going to have rate hikes. think about it right now. >> interest rates. >> interest rates. the fed fund rates at essentially zero. banks borrowing for nothing but think about which a that does to treasury. 3%, almost nothing. why put your money in a fixed income investment, a cd, bond, treasury bill? you have to put it in the stock market. that has to change at some point. it's unprecedented. two years of zero percent fed funds. how can that happen? >> a ten-year loan, which is a lot of mortgage in...