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Department of justice is the so-called fraud crime exception where there is a criminal activity, and that's what the congress is most interested in. and they don't even address that issue in their memo. >> it's interesting, jeff. i mean, if it's up to mcgahn, i guess part of it feels -- is how mcgahn feels about the president because the president has been bad mouthing mcgahn. >> that's the fascinating wild card because if you read the legal opinion, congress can't force don mcgahn to testify but it doesn't address the question at all of what if don mcgahn wants to testify. i asked john, how d...

Mcgahn has got to be willing not to testify. he's got to be willing to be in contempt of congress potentially. they have no other -- they have really no leverage over him. it's mcgahn's call. while the president doesn't want him to testify, what -- what is left out of the opinion by the department of justice is the so-called fraud crime exception where there is a criminal activity, and that's what the congress is most interested in. and they don't even address that issue in their memo. >> it's interesting, jeff. i mean, if it's up to mcgahn, i guess part of it feels -- is how mcgahn feels abou...