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It is clear, it is clear, mr. hayes, that there has been a systematic failure in the state of north carolina, among republican governors, democrat governors and board of elections going on back a decade to stop this. >> wait. let me stop you there. because i want to sort of maybe argue on the other side for a moment. it does seem there are some persistent irregularities in bladen and robison and we'll see more things come to light. but the other thing is we now have caught this individual, it appears. again, there's criminal subpoenas. i don't want to get ahead of the facts. but my question to...

These things. >> i hear that. that's fair enough. >> and look, look, we are as horrified by that as anybody. but i do think it's important that the people that committed the acts are the ones that need the serve the second term of the pence administration in jail. they need to be punished. i am appreciative of the media and you for putting sunlight to this. it is clear, it is clear, mr. hayes, that there has been a systematic failure in the state of north carolina, among republican governors, democrat governors and board of elections going on back a decade to stop this. >> wait. let me stop yo...

904 votes that he should still be certified? >> well, mr. hayes, no, sir because if they found that many, you know, you would have a substantial likelihood there were more. >> okay. >> i mean, i think -- >> but i just want to make sure i'm understanding this. you think it's a numerical question. >> if you let me ever finish i would explain it to you. >> okay, go ahead. >> okay. look, if it rises to a level that it puts the outcome in question then we should have a new election. if they can assert and prove that whatever bad behavior that is going to be punished criminally could absolutely not ...

>> and at the same time the state is engaged in a very difficult negotiation and fight over the control of the board of elections. >> that i know. >> and so the board of elections, it's walking out the door simply comes out and says they're not going to certify and at that time really don't say why. >> right. okay. but -- >> of course we're suspicious of that. >> let's put that to the side. >> no, well, but you're asking me about what i said and you have to put it in context. >> let me give you more context. as we look at this it seems like there were some real red flags and it seems to me lik...

>> and he got pasted. >> the cleanest, easiest model for presidential reelection is often whether the economy is growing or not. >> that's right. >> in six months before the election. betsy, there is always this question whether presidents deserve credit or not for an economy, and obviously they get it either way. they tend to get credit when it's doing well, blame enit's doing poorly. what is your theory about what the economy is doing now and the fears of recession. that from the fed? or is the president actively pushing it in that direction? >> so i think it's important to realize that expa...