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The other thing that when you read what the special counsel appointed. any contact between the campaign and russians. if paul manafort lied about that. that goes to the heart of it whether or not something that happens at that meeting. that's the core of the investigation. those kinds of contact. >> carol, what about you? one thing to remember is the high burden of proof that attaches to a criminal investigation. borrowing an actual recording of a meeting or an untrue witness which we have of manafort. the prosecution's hands are a little bit tied in terms of proving what was said at that meet...

Will follow through and will care more about manafort than trump. that's not a very good bet because trump only cares about trump. right now if he pardons manafort it's going to be an obstruction count. >> trump doesn't care if he does things that highly unusual or unethical. the only thing that will stop him is the law. >> he does things that are in his interest. if it was in his interest to pardon manafort right now, he would do it but he knows it's not in his interest because he's staring down the barrel of being an unindicted co-conspirator and he doesn't want that. if he pardons manafort,...

Happened to suggest this, didn't act on it, trump was basically shooting his mouth off? would that be somebody in that position -- >> every time i hear an attorney talking with his client -- of course, don mcgahn is the white house counsel, not president trump's personal attorney general -- attorney general. i will just say that, you know, legal live speakily speaking th charge that there's an underlying charge of collusion in order for mueller to charge an obstruction count. we all know that. i think it would be politically speaking risky for mueller to charge without that underlying

Guilty to two charges, conspiracy against the united states and conspiracy to obstruct justice. >> the conspiracy against the united states charge encompassed the bank fraud, tax fraud. the obstruction count had to do with his alleged witness tampering more recently where he reached out to witnesses to get them to change their stories. >> it deal required manafort to forfeit ill-gotten gains made through his garage lnt schemes. five new york properties in total, including his new york trump tower condo. manafort also agreed to hand over funds from three bank accounts and a life insurance polic...

President's tweets. he's been mad at sessions for a long time. what do you make of him actually discussing firing him with people in the white house? >> i agree with you it's not exactly news. he's been trying to bully this guy to resign for a long time. i think it's a sign of frantic behavior. look at the position he's in. manafort is convicted and is about to be convicted again. cohen has flipped. immunity has been given. his white house counsel has given 30 hours of testimony to mueller. i think he feels the walls closing in and is in just a panic and does not know what to do. if he does go...