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Says he has a standing order which does sound lick a communicated directive. it's that no one heard it. he apparently made it up as his first stab of defense here. but if he had something like that and there were a piece of paper even if it's crazy to have a system like that, he would be on much stronger grounds. whereas i think it and it's declassified and no one knows i've done that is incoherent in term of the way the system works, because it's about the system in which the government protects information, keeps it closely held, carries it in special packages, puts it on special computers a...

Case or the pence case. and how hard is it to prov obstruction? >> normally, stephanie, it i very difficult to prov obstruction because what you have to establish is someone's intention and their frame of mind in this case, however, donal trump has made it excessivel easy for jack smith because of the timeline he had repeated notices, and during the stretches after h received notice, that's wher you start to get his intention and it becomes more clear as t what he really wanted to do an what he wanted to avoid. there is an important point to make here, however as we see jack smith movin closer...

This and heaven. i feel like i need like the court board with the strings to figure out all the things that are going on. but when you get a sense of where things stand what sticks out to you right now, i always feel like this has been the kind of the biggest anvil of all of the legal cases that the former president and look i mean the seriousness of the obstruction issue has been clear since the day they the fbi went. two mar-a-lago to conduct a search and then uncovered all these additional documents. the danger for the former president. legal danger for the former president has been, you kn...

Investigation. when they start calling your lawyer, they try to pierce attorney-client privilege, let's just say, that is never good news for the potential defendant. >> so, yes, i would caveat, we've had conversations about the walls closing in on trump many times before. >> only about 8,000 times over six years. >> the walls must be -- >> i didn't say that. >> to your point, i think the big vulnerability it seems to me is ultimately going to be on this obstruction issue with respect to these documents. that seems more clear cut than anything that has happened prior to then because it's so si...

>> do you think that the department of justice -- obviously there weren't criminal referrals for things like witness intimidation or witness tampering -- >> well, actually there was, obstruction. >> sorry, go ahead. >> we did refer the obstruction issue for further investigation specifically the footnote on the hutchinson testimony from september, but we also said the fact that we didn't mention people by name did not -- didn't mean we meant to exclude them and certainly there's a lot more work that would need to be done and the department of justice has investigatory tools that mere legislati...