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The mission from being a largely defensive one, help ukraine defend itself, to something with a more offensive aspect to it? >> i'm not sure it's going to be the hallmark of a more offensive, you know, attacks on russia, you know, inside of russia, per se, jim, but it's language i really welcome because it's something i think many russian watchers have been hoping for for a number of years now. there's always been a lot of self-editing that happens in the west. well, you know, we have to be careful with regard to russia, it's a large country, so forth and so on. finally i think politicians and...

Possibility of what they call color revolutions which are referred to explicitly in the russia/chinese joint statement after their meeting, by which they mean a kind of american-sponsored upheaval, attempt to overthrow the regime. and they have this joint interest in a sense in making the world safe for autocracy. woodrow wilson talked about making the world safe for democracy but i think russia and china have decided they want to make the world safe for their autocratic regimes by pushing back against what they regard as these u.s.-inspired things that they would point to, say, ukraine, the r...

Americans were behind the uprising in hong kong. but also i think there's a more offensive aspect to it, which is that they have a joint perception that america is also getting weaker, going back to the financial crisis, the problems with the pandemic that you referred to, you know, the storming of the capitol, the fall of afghanistan, you name it. there's a lot of reasons why they think now is a good time jointly to push back against american power. >> cindy, i wonder how much of this, though, has something to do with western policy as well. i mean, i can't help but thinking that you had thes...