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Whatever this thing was in the middle, this effort had different aspects to it some of which were really effective, like the hacks in wikileaks. sol of it hard to think affected the election. but you just wonder in your head what is the chart, the org chart look like on the other side of this thing being ordered. >> i mean, i think, again, i think that they were just seeing what they could do. when congressmen are telling us they have evidence that they're going to be back in the next elections, they really understand that this was trial run, essentially. they never -- the russians never actua...

Chief of staff? >> anthony scaramucci is the communications director, the spokesperson. who he reports to doesn't matter. one thing about president trump, he talks to who he needs to talk to when he needs to talk to them, a and quite frankly, an org chart, it doesn't mean anything to me because when he needs to talk to someone, he's going to. i have no courts whatsoever that john kelly and anthony scaramucci along with his other advisers are going to work very well together. who cares what the org chart looks like. >> very quickly, i know this is the first face-to-face meeting with jeff sessio...

I may offend a few people that worked on the campaign by saying this. the trump campaign could barely collude with the rnc. the trump campaign was run by one person, donald trump. he was the strategist, he was the campaign manager, and he won the election from his cha rhyri and his direction. i'm saying the campaign was a campaign unlike any you've ever seen before. >> wouldn't that person know about the meetings? >> no, because it's not as if this campaign had the proper bureaucracy that looked like other campaigns with an org chart. when those three people went to this meeting, they were pro...

Put forward an evidence this is a heroic effort that reveals the nefarious connections with russia and those connections aren't clear. each side says there's a silver bullet but there is no there there yet. >> at the end of the day, the senate committee, the house intelligence committee, the fbi aren't able to prove anything other than a whole bunch of confidential or circumstantial evidence. >> right. something that doesn't look look cohesive org chart. it doesn't necessarily seem like spying and there are a whole lot of people connected to trump who seem to have had those ak kwatances and co...

There's a lot of confusion, not much understanding. as it turns out, it refers to cyber security. and refers to infrastructure, protection. and it's an agency that's supposed to do both of those. but just by hearing the name you would never know. any thoughts on that? >> well, when i looked at the org chart one of the first question is had, what does that block do. so, i agree. i think it's a name change, not always important, might be in this case. it's been brought up to me a number of times. you did obviously. but other people within the organization. not within homeland security, i've not ...